The RWA Boom and DeFi's Trust Reckoning

But I think the reality of the last 30 60 days has proven to us is that from a security and risk perspective is that you know we're not ready for the for like the next wave of capital coming in. Look I think is leverage good or bad? Uh I think the financial system that runs today is heavily based off leverage. So I don't think inherently it's a bad thing. I think it's a very common thing across the staff.

you know, nearly 10 years being in the crypto space where we started really far away from what banks were doing internally for managing risk to being very close to what banks are doing with managing risk and compliance. I think the next 10x growth really comes from proving one DeFi is safe and secure again. to this growth of extracting away the complexity of using crypto and DeFi. So, welcome everyone to Beyond the Yield. Uh, happy to have on board today Graham from Centrifuge.

Hey Graham. >> Hey Ziggas. Zikas. >> Did I say it right? Sorry.

>> Yeah, you're saying it right. A lot of people are actually struggling with that. So yeah, I'm Ziggas. I'm leading product at the And yeah, welcome to Beyond the Yield again. Happy to have you here.

And um yeah, maybe just uh to begin with, uh could you tell a short story about yourself, your background, and how you ended up working on DeFi and RWS at Centrifuge? >> Yeah, awesome. Well, firstly, thanks for having me. Um it's great to be on the yield. Uh yeah so I mean I was really lucky the way I started and got into the space is I worked for a bank in South Africa.

Myself and a colleague um we were really passionate about the technology. This was back in 2016 and we worked together to get buyin from the organization at the time to start the blockchain team there. uh and that was two or three years of just pure research into the ecosystem and the uh potential and the possibility of what could happen across the DeFi ecosystem and DeFi really wasn't a thing back in 2016 2017 was only starting with a few players and think from there was uh the obviously from there was understanding the opportunity and that evolved me obviously staying in the space for a long time and moving into DeFi or DeFi related role full-time in 2020 22 um at signab bank and then continually been working across the stack you know worked at a along the time that they were building out go um and now at capuge uh mainly focused really around rwas my role today at centifuge is the defi product leads is that you know I mainly focus on how we can bring centuses tokenized products into the defi composability stack and really give these assets the same composability that we've seen in D5 for the last five years that it's been so exciting with governance tokens or stable coins or yield bearing stable coins and bring that really the same um composibility into the DeFi stack which I think is we're slowly starting to get there and really excited and I think we'll talk more about it part of this conversation. >> Yeah, we'll definitely do speak more about it. Um what I find interesting is that uh you work close to both Trefi and DeFi, right?

Uh what did that teach you about like is there a gap between how Trafi is building products and DeFi and like if there is like how different is that when you compare let's say your experience even though you're you were building quite some crypto stuff in chat but still I believe you got a touch of how different the space is still from the D5 that we have now right >> yeah 100% I think the biggest thing and the biggest viewpoint point and we're starting to see it coming in today on like let's say in the DeFi space but you know a tradefi in the tradefi ecosystem the real focus is on risk security uh risk security and compliance like that's a really you know at the centerfold of every product that you know you're building within trade you have different you know like in DeFi today you're not really speaking to any regulators or like you're not answering you know mishaps to regulators and maybe some teams are um but where Trade in Trafy when working at you know some a place like Signnum or similar is that you know they have regulators to answer to for customer deposits and so the focus really number one is making sure that everything is compliant and then number two is that it and being compliant is a really complex uh a complex situation purely just because you don't there's a whole real world banking system that underpins you know compliance in a regulated ecosystem. And so it's how do you bring these DeFi products or crypto products, plug them into traditional banking rails, keeping them compliant and being able to report into the existing, you know, central banking reporting systems that you need to report to or things like that. So it makes it a really challenging um item. Number two is just like risk, right? I think when you're a bank and you're taking deposits, you have to have a very strong view on risk and potentially just have different um you have different regulatory requirements on the risk side of things.

And so that obviously, you know, in DeFi risk is maybe just isolated to asset risk and and smart contract risk. And so here I think like it's very different. You can be a bit more I don't want to say cowboyish, but you can be a bit more free in the DeFi ecosystem in terms of how you manage risk. you can see how different teams win with the risk that they take and and have lost in the space. So I think those are really like I think the two things that taught me the most and you know like in trade fire you have a slower delivery cycle that you potentially have in DeFi and I mean obviously the reason being that is really behind like these main things that you have to consider and build for an accountant to the building time.

>> Yeah. Okay. Super interesting. And you've already briefly mentioned that you've been uh kind of participant in like you've been interested in the space at least since 2017, right? And also Centrifuge as an organization has been around since 2017.

But you could say that only now we're seeing like a bigger adoption happening for Centrifuge specifically, right? So what do you think change in the market or in the product that you're offering to actually allow this? Is it related to what you just mentioned like maybe uh risk getting lower more institutions putting more trust into DFI or is it just like that the product was not um was not sufficient enough at the time and only now we see adoption happening there. So yeah curious to get your take on what do you think leads to success now? Look, I think it's I love this question because, you know, we were like super early when Santa Fus was super early like you say 2017 and the building out that we did over you know 2017, 2018, 2019 as a team was early but there was no demand for the product suites.

So you know like we were ahead of the time when thinking about bringing these real world assets on chain but the big issue that was faced was this mismatch of demand and supply and so we were bringing but there was no demand for these assets on these products and so we were really trying to experiment you know we launched some private credit pools in 2020 2021 2022 but the biggest challenge was one that there were no interest like the demand was really low and number two was just that there was no like it difficult to compete with yield onchain for the retail like the retail yield flow. So, you know, we think about back to 2022 and DeFi summer. It was a great time to be around, but you were earning, you know, yields upward of 10% and on USDC. And so, to bring any real world asset at the time to compete with that yield and get any mind share on chain was really difficult. And I think we saw the shift slowly start to take place, you know, when we saw onchain yields tend to go lower than uh the t-b rate in the US, the risk-free rate.

And then I think you started to see more interest in how do we bring these rwas on chain one that the yield is one aspect of it, but I also think a lot of teams um and you know, we're big fans of Grove, which was one of the maker stars. um showing that onchain capital is looking for safer stable respon like reliable yield. Um and that comes really driven through like these RWA assets that are coming on chain. We think about the T like the treasury bulls but as well as um you know we have a AAA clo which really I think is that you're slowly starting to see the demand looking for diversification of yield for RWA on chain. So that I think that's like the one pillar, right?

Is that you have stable coins looking for yield. You have these institutional credit onchain credit funds like Grove looking for yield. You have Dows and DeFi protocols, you know, sitting on idle capital looking to diversify their yield into safer assets, which I think you'll see this continual grow of let's say RWA demand. And then I think you s on the other side where you know we at Centifuge we have some interest in in tokenized equities but you know some of our competitors have done a great job with bringing tokenized equities on chain and I think that is like it's opening up a new market to everybody you know who's maybe doesn't have access in the countries that they live in to be able to access you know Tesla shares or Apple shares or whatever shares it may be but now they can finally access it through this the this border borderless financial infrastructure that you know has been being built over the last few years and then they can go and do the whole DeFi plug and play aspect of it and I think it's super exciting and I think that's really um that's really like I think the why we've seen this takeoff of RWA in the last you know 12 months really start to take up and I still think we we're going to see you know I always love refer uh referring to like RWXY Z and I think like 18 months ago TVL you know the TVL from 18 months is up 3x or 4x over you know a year and a half time which is I think a testament to not only what center has been doing but the whole like the whole RWA ecosystem in a general which I think is yeah it's exciting. >> One interesting point you mentioned was about defy participants seeking for uh lower risk and thus investing in RWS.

Is this what you're seeing at Centrifuge? Is it mostly DeFi capital flying in or is it also institutions trying things out? Like do you see some uh investment banks coming in than depositing? Or is it still mostly like DeFi capital being deposited that are just seeking for a safer yield maybe compared to what we have in traditional lending markets? >> I mean, I think from our perspective, it's onchain allocators.

we're not really seeing offchain allocators move on chain. Um, and if they are, they're doing it silently, right? So, it's not that like maybe they're still coming on and they're accessing like these products uh via their own way. It's really about de I think it's yeah I would just say it's existing onchain capital allocators just moving away from potentially one or two DeFi sources to including two or three RWA sources plus their DeFi sources. Um you know like I'm sure we all grew up in you know in finance 101 where it was always like always diversify your asset base and always diversify your investments.

And I think we're seeing that start to play out with onchain capital allocators diversifying across multiple RWA providers and multiple RWA assets and onchain DeFi assets to have this like good basket of assets that sort of should that will keep you protected and earning yield. Um yeah >> what do you think we are missing from bringing offchain capital onchain? >> I mean I I think it's really tough right? I think I you know we just have to look at the last I mean not too sure when this will air but I when it does air and you know like I'm sure there's going to be a lot more as well but like if you just look after the last 60 days and there are number of hacks and protocol compromises and the unfortunate event of kelp is that all those things will sort of take like would take uh let's say will always bring hesitation for this other capital to move onchain to really justify you know the riskreward ratio for bringing this capital on chain the challenges like DeFi is obviously and I think unequivocally like very clear that it's it it'll win right DeFi will win in the long run we're all moving towards the I mean this is like what I strongly believe in is that like we're all moving towards a world that everything will be underpinned by the DeFi infrastructure But I think the reality of the last 30 60 days has proven to us is that from a security and risk perspective is that you know we're not ready for the for like the next wave of capital coming in. And unfortunately I think that like trust that trust lever is going to sort of be it's like really low at the moment for convincing capital come on chain and make the most of things.

Not but I do I would just preface it to say I think is that it will only make us better. I think, you know, I've seen it before and I've been through cycles where, you know, we had a lot of hacks in these D5 protocols and what it just meant was that we spent a lot of time the, you know, like we spent a lot of time hardening them, reoditing them, spending a lot of time managing risk and I think the same thing will happen off the back of the last 30 60 days is that, you know, I can talk for Centuge, but you know, we're we we're reviewing, we're like hardening, you know, expanding the security infrastructure. um around like everything that we do and I'm pretty sure every other single DeFi team is currently doing that now as well and every DeFi protocol is reviewing assets that are maybe used as collateral or risk and to re to ensure that you know we're hardened um that it doesn't happen again and I think building to really answer your question then it's like rebuilding this trust it's rebuilding that DeFi or onchain is a safe place to put park your dollars to un yield to benefit from the composability rails that we all love. Uh but it's going to take some time. I think that's a reality that we're all aware of.

Maybe the last 30 60 days is caused. But again like I'm always I'm bullish. I think you know DeFi will win. um teams will come back and we will have I mean hopefully in two years time when we have a follow-up conversation we can just say that you know we learned a lot about this time and it only made us better and stronger and it what end result meant that we brought way more capital on chain. >> Yeah that's definitely the goal that we would take learnings from this rather than just you know forget about it and repeat next cycle.

So yeah, hopefully everyone takes um is taking notes right now and reviewing their stack. And speaking about stack, um we mentioned RWAS on chain quite a few times. Uh can you explain to someone who is not familiar like how rwas onchain really work? Maybe can you walk us through the journey of like how does uh um certain threadfi market end up on centrifuge and then maybe like even in D5 protocol. So this entire like what's uh the middleware that is required to actually bring these assets on chain.

>> Yeah, more than happy to. So is a tokenization protocol and what centennif does or what we do at is that we work with the asset issuers. So some of our main partners is Janice Henderson um and the S&P 500 um as well as like Apollo which is a enormous private credit fund and what we do is we work with these asset issuers internally with our own asset manager by the name of Anamoy and we help them bring their assets on chain. What does that mean is that we the centifuge protocol allows you to build a fund essentially which is essentially a vault infrastructure that allows these asset issuers to tokenize their assets. So you know create a share onchain that allows um an investor to come in and purchase these assets.

Now what's happening in the background is you know the Senish protocol facilitates these investments or redemptions and then part has a let's say is built for RWA on and off ramping to the underlying providers to go and purchase the assets offchain. So there's an offchain component where you still have to buy the real world assets offchain but the pro the protocol enables this and then you buy the assets offchain and then you tokenize and issue the representation onchain by the center protocol and these are the primary assets. So like that's the flow for these primary assets that are only open to the um uh they're only open to us I mean non US professional investors. When we think about like the DeFi assets, Senaphuge, we've also issued um what we would refer to as DERWAS and essentially there are a wrapper or a debt instrument of the underlying funds that are primary funds. So we have four funds at the moment.

It's it's JTRSY which is our treasury pool fund. We have JA which is our CLLO AAA rated fund, Apollo's um AAD X and then S&P 500. Then we have a D5 version of each one of these funds which is a debt instrument to the underlying fund but allows you to once you KYC and purchase the primary you can then freely transfer it on the secondary market which makes these assets really great for the DeFi ecosystem because as an individual you can come in you can either acquire these assets on a deck somewhere or you can KYC and be able to acquire them directly with us and then you're able to then go supply them as collateral on Morpho or borrow against it um or supply it as like liquidity index or just hold them as a savings product. So like you have this benefit and composability in the D5 ecosystem via these assets. You're still getting the yield from the underlying asset and then you're still being able to use them in the D5 rails that we we've come to love.

So that's sort of how Cent works. It's very volt volts based infrastructure really designed and tailored towards RWAS and then being able to once you've issued these assets be able to then plug and play them in the D5 um composibility ecosystem. >> Okay. And why specifically these assets and why they are taking off uh at the moment because I remember some time ago you were as you also mentioned here that you were trying to bring private credit on chain um and it seems that now you're more focusing on like assets like yeah as you mentioned like treasury yields uh like um you can call it ETF I guess as NP 500 right uh what you launched with SPXA. So what what's your like how does your process for evaluating which asset to bring on chain actually work?

Is it driven completely by demand where someone ask that hey we need this liquidity and like uh can you bring it on chain or is it someone else driving? So how you make these decisions on which assets you're bringing actually on chain? Um at the end of the day like you know Santa is a permissionless open infrastructure for tokenizing assets. So the ideally like you know I the thought is that anybody could come in and tokenize the asset if they want to if you're an asset issuer and we can support them with that entire process. the ones that we partner with.

One I think is we're really focusing on high quality real world assets that can be that are highly liquid um tradable on the secondary market. I mean polo may be a bit different um that is interesting to the market that we know that there'll be demand for there is demand for and justifying us bringing these assets on chain. Now you know when we think about 2017 2018 well I it would have been more 2020 when we were doing private credit you know we were trying to source the capital for the private credit deals and it was very difficult to do um and we were trying to be this middle ground where today our focus is partnering with somebody like Apollo who's the one of the biggest or if not the biggest private credit um fund in the world and then that manage and work with these kind of partners to bring these assets on chain. So I think that's really the big difference and what we're looking at and I think it's just like a really a yield and a trust lever kind of thing. you know, we work with Janice Henderson, which is one of the biggest um also again one of the biggest asset managers in the world.

And so these are the things that we're really wanting to focus on. And I think that's really like where we spend a lot of time and effort in is like helping great asset managers wanting to come on chain and tokenize their assets and then making sure that we have demand to supplement these assets that do come on chain. >> Right. And uh you already mentioned that um centrifuges assets are starting to be adopted even by lending markets like morpho I saw also like recent integration with oiler there's other institutional market also for lending these assets. So what do you think DeFi enables for these RWA assets?

what Trafi maybe is not capable of enabling and like how does this entire lending market like play in this entire RWA space? Uh it's a hard question to answer. I think the when we look at maybe not so hard. I think when we look at these RWAs that either retail and traditional holders are using um depending on their needs and on chain let's say their needs and the reason why they access these. I think, you know, if you're a retail investor and you're used to looping specific assets, you know, coming in and holding an RWA asset now that potentially you can loop to get additional yields.

I think like that it's like very native to those users and the infrastructures there that's built to allow them to do this. I think that's like a, you know, like that's really answering a need and and a use case for what they potentially wouldn't be able to do with their broker account or their broker account is too cumbersome to be able to do such a thing. And so, you know, like we're all potentially, you know, these DeFi native users have the ability to do it and it the infrastructure rails or the vaults that are built on top by specific curators allows it to be done. Um, and I think that's really maybe the one reason and I think when we're thinking about these users is that they're also onchain allocators and so they don't they want to be using the onchain like rails to put like the assets to work. And I think that's really the focus there as to you know why they would do it over potentially using um you know some a brokerage account or something that they would be have access to already today.

>> Yeah, makes sense. And you briefly mentioned looping which is really interesting in today's context. We just saw how kelp dowo um made the situation that all the loopers were stuck in lending markets right like you couldn't unloop basically and then as the yields grew it became unprofitable and overall looping sounds like um a risky strategy to pursue. it's eventually you're putting leverage on your positions, right, to turn extra yields. Um, so first of all, do you think looping is good or bad for DFI?

And then how do you think we should like uh how can we ensure that it doesn't lead to like a huge and leveraging event uh potentially in some like further future when the markets hit uh much larger TVL numbers. >> Um look I think is leverage good or bad? Uh I think the financial system that runs today is heavily based off leverage. So I don't think inherently it's a bad thing. I think it's a very common thing across the staff.

I think what kelpal maybe showed us uh and I think I you know I talk about it like the learnings was the risk that it introduces into a banking system right like and I use the banking system as you know onchain defi be it a or like whatever the related counterparties were to the what happened um so no I don't think looping is a bad thing I think looping is a natural organic financial product that gets driven out of the fact that you know individuals can derive more yield from it with leverage obviously introduces more risk and you know maybe the traditional finance ecosystem has dealt with how you manage these risk via you know financial cris crises that sort of get driven out of you know when leverage in the financial system needs to be deleveraged and obviously they have their own issues there. Um, so I think really when we think about leveraging today is how do you manage risk with these assets for the leveraging and this is where you know you could like I don't really want to get in the argument or like discussion point between you know like what makes a good and what makes moro good but it's a great example of you know morpho's infrastructure where you know you have this like isolated risk to a specific vault in the looping strategy um which is somewhat contained from a risk perspective and I think you'll see with RV v4 and you know the these kind of products will move to a more risk isolated ecosystem where the risk will be very siloed to that individual market and you know when you supply your capital as a just an LP maybe you're not leveraging but you're adding your capital there you have to understand the risks that you're adding into that vault in itself that you sort of put um your capital at risk for a looper to take leverage of it and I think you need to be aware of those risks and I think there sort of I think there's enough risk disclosure today to be aware of it. So yeah, I mean that's my answer to the question. I think it's tricky but I definitely think you know everything lives on leverage today and I think looping is an important you know growth lever for a lot of products but it also generates more yield and when the minute there's more yield there's going to be more leverage in place. Yeah, I was listening this week to a podcast by one of the best macro investors uh of our generation and um yeah he was telling a story where like basically every crisis in the world came because of too much leverage in the system which unleveraged right so this sounds like a potential future leverage point which could build up you know and which would cause like a huge unwind.

Yeah. And and look, whatever happened with Kelp DAO, right? I think today we can look at DeFi United and it's incredibly impressive that in its own way it's had a had its own I want to call a bailout but a bailout in its way and DeFi will continue right and you know I believe that over the long run def like a and you know just from a pure revenue point of view will be able to repay back all these people. It might take a few years, but like they'll get there. And I think, you know, it's great to see the recovery that will take place outside of this and the continued growth um that will come in the DeFi space.

But yeah, you Yeah, very true about the leverage. >> Yeah. Well, like if you look at visitation like the deleveraging event that we just had like isn't even caused by like too much leverage just it's caused by a hack, right? like which is completely different case and as you mentioned like when we start dealing with our risks better then maybe we can have like a bit more um leverage in the system also added um cool like so as of lately we've seen uh of course growth in RWAs in terms of like users adopting treasury yields as you mentioned stocks are growing uh what do you think will be the next big unlock in RWA space like what will be the next um next RW instruments that uh protocols will push or that users will be mostly interested like maybe some bonds the same private credit maybe didn't work so well in the first time but maybe the market is different now and like eager to get juicier yields. So yeah, like what's your view being inside the RWA space uh on where the next growth verticals are potentially lying?

>> Um again I think it's a tough question to answer because I think maybe three months ago I had a different answer to the answer today and where we are with risk on chain. Um but I think the RWA ecosystem in itself is moving in the right direction. So like the 10x growth I think is the big focus is the more um the more we continue to bring high yielding assets with a very low with high liquid like high secondary market liquidity in the real world with very short redemption windows will then obviously be heavily like that is like heavily focused on let me just like I think it'll be heavily focused on um continue to do this. This is like where the access to capital will come in. This is where can I reanswer this question?

Maybe this is the only one I want to reanswer the 10x growth one. >> Okay. Yep. That's cool. Yeah.

>> I can just go or do you want to ask it again? >> Um yeah, I can maybe ask again for reference. We'll see like which part. But uh Okay. So uh being an insider in RWA space like where do you think we are going next?

Like we've been uh we've been bringing treasuries, we've been bringing stocks, right? Like what's the next growth vertical in RW space that we're likely to see? >> Yeah, I think the assets will stay somewhat similar that we that they'll be brought on chain. I think it'll be more equities. I think you know US treasuries are here there you know centifuge there's black rock there's a few others there will be a more I think more variety of interesting assets that will come on chain that are higher yielding with a bit more risk um but still the same you know maybe T1 liquidity kind of window I think they'll get some adoption where I think the 10x will come in will be I think will really be around one area I see is DeFi diversifying its yield gener like generating yield from assets that are RWAS and you can see this with like you know I think Moro V2 with their fixed yield or like the the yield uh feature that they have you know a have this uh a v4 has this idle capital purchasing feature repurchasing feature that can go buy you know yield bearing assets underneath to generate yield for unutilized assets and I think that'll be one growth factors like defy seeking or powering some yield outside of their stack from RWA.

That's one area. I think that then the other area is I think it's just you know retail looking for savings products safe savings yield and I think you know there are so many great you know fintech retail product plays that are coming up at the moment and you know you see them all over X like be it uh be it like a Vichi or be it the you know the plasma one product all of them are going to need to diversify their yield from a risk perspective and I think you know RWAS is going to be a very interesting or natural opportunity for them to diversify into that space and I think we'll see some growth there as well. So I think it's, you know, a variety of things. It's better assets. It's going to be, you know, more liquidity.

It's going to be maybe it's some regulation, but I also think it's like better distribution. I think like today, what excites me about crypto is the distribution venues that are sort of being built out by these fintech app kind of style products that are offering yield to the user on stable coins. And I think that'll really help the overall growth of RWA on chain over the next six, 12, 18 months. where we get 10x growth from, I don't know. I I'm I'm also very interested to see what that looks like, I guess, in the next little bracket that we're focusing on.

>> Interesting that you mentioned like the new fintex as so-called neo banks, I think, right? Uh who which are popping up right now. Usually these we see at least on centralized exchanges they just have earn 5% yield on USDC and that's it. So they abstract all the logic behind. >> Yeah.

How do you think like ideally a bank should um should manage their risk and how they should distribute between like you know investing in yields but for example also like in some crypto markets right because probably the yields might be higher or went into looping. So like how do you have an idea of how this can be mingled together between like the D5 yields and the stratfire yields or RWA yields to make it like more composable finance? >> Um I think these fintech neo banks will end up being doing exactly what banks are doing from a risk department point of view. So if you think of in traditional finance there are all these deposits that come in from depositors and then there's a very big credit team in these banks that obviously you know the bank needs to generate yield on these assets and are lending them out and in the same way in these neoint plays you know and a is a you know if you're depositing some of your users assets into a like you're extending a credit line to a in a way to generate these assets these deal for your users. And if you were in a bank, you know, if you think about any, you know, tier one bank wherever you are in the world, that bank isn't lending out all customer deposits to a single person generating yield on those assets, right?

Which would be which would be irresponsible um from a banking or wouldn't be allowed from a banking regulation point of view. And I think these fintech, these fintech new banks are going to sort of merge very close to what a credit team is doing at a big bank in terms of managing risk, reviewing protocols, reviewing liquidity on the protocols, reviewing the contagion risk of uh cult happening again and what does that mean for the users and their USDC. And I think it's going to what I love always is that over the last you know nearly 10 years being in the crypto space where we started really far away from what banks were doing internally for managing risk to being very close to what banks are doing with managing risk and compliance and that all these crypto products that we're doing, right? It's like so focused on evaluating so much of the risk and um contagion and managing customer deposits and making sure that it's diversified that if something does go wrong with one venue that you're not like, you know, you're not losing all your money, right, and managing that across the board. And I think all these fintech are going to end up really getting close to what a bank's credit team is doing to manage risk.

when you tell it that so everything so makes sense that yeah this is the great wave of replacing the banks with a more efficient system. >> Yeah. >> Um >> uh okay what's next for centrifuge? Um, is it more assets, more liquidity, maybe more chains? Like what's what do you think will be the next growth pillars for the centrifuge as a protocol, right?

Like where do you see um most growth potential? Um yeah, just in general, what can we expect in the next let's say until the year end from you guys? >> I think there's two pillars. So one really focused on continue bringing highquality assets to the market via highquality asset managers. We have one announcement that should be coming out in the next month or two.

Another high quality asset manager bringing these assets on chain and continually working with our existing asset managers to continually grow investments in their products. Really big focus. We'll continue doing that. We have I think the best suite of real world assets on chain today for an investor. So I think really focusing and building those out on the other half is that you know center we're a tokenization protocol that allows any asset manager to come in or any team to come in and tokenize their assets.

Great example is a partner of our ours called Daylight who are you know using the centrifuge protocol to tokenize the asset that they're looking to distribute into the market. And I think that bears a big piece of our focus is continue bringing you know participants who want to tokenize some form of real world asset or tokenize I would call it an onchain fund via us via our white label solution that we we were offering in the market and distribute that into the market and those are the two big focuses that we're working on. So one is more on our assets and bringing our assets on chain but also allowing other teams who want to leverage this technology that today is you know securing two nearly $2 billion of TVL in real world assets is allow other teams to benefit from that same technology stack that we've built to allow them to grow their asset base and them to grow their access into the distribution in the market that we can you know the protocol itself provides. So two very different but very exciting things that we're working on. I think we'll continue to grow that over the next 6 12 months.

>> Okay. Super interesting and excited to see all these uh being deployed on live. Um what and like we briefly touched on regulations. So maybe just like wanted to uh go just a bit into this. How do you view regulation as a whole?

like of course you're dealing with RWA you're sitting closest to regulations and what's your um what's your process uh of evaluating like is this regulatory friendly is this not is there overall enough clarity in the space on like how to tokenize RAS and what can you actually do with them so yeah maybe you can expand on this >> yeah it's a question I can't really answer and uh it it's you know really one for the legal eagles in the in the team to really focus on an answer. I can only say from like a high level point of view I think we all know that regulation needs to evolve to cover more onchain assets. We do know now today that you know regulators all over the world are paying attention and building and discussing you know frameworks and some kind of you know regulator acts in each of their countries to enable this and I think you know the right people having the right conversations to drive the space forward with the right interests and so I think we just have to wait and see. >> Okay. Yeah.

Thanks that makes sense. Um my final question would be what do you think is missing uh from DeFi to achieve the next 10x growth in terms of users of whether it be retail or institutional um and it's not only in RWA space but of course like you're coming from the space so I would expect uh you to have some opinion on that but just as a whole for DFI right like what are we missing to get the next huge chunk of growth I think I've touched on a lot, right? Obviously, what's we're maybe down 5x from the last 60 days just behind all the hacks. I think the next 10x growth really comes from proving one, DeFi is safe and secure again to this growth of extracting away the complexity of using crypto and DeFi. So this UX layer there.

Um and then yeah, I think those two will really be the biggest pillars, right? Because I think those two are going to be the catapult is one making sure that everyone trusts onchain finance again and that your capital is not just going to be withdrawn or locked up or have some issues or get hacked I guess from protocol point of view. And then number two is just, you know, I am really excited about it. This is why there's so many of these neo banks popping up fully focused on cryptos that I think there are just it's going to be so great to extract away all the complexities that we face today in the crypto product rails and really just giving everybody a really easy access into the market. So I think that's really I think the focus.

>> Great. >> That's where the t comes from. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, let's hope this all uh happens in the next cycle or a couple cycles.

But hey, thanks Graham for uh for jumping in. This has been great. Uh maybe you can tell us more where can we follow centrifuge? Where can we find out about the news? Uh like where what's the best medium?

>> I mean Ex was probably the best place you can go follow us on X. We sort of will announce everything by there. You're always able to see more information about the center products on our app which is app.senterge.io. You can then also um view our reports on June. There's a cent dashboard or rwaxyz.

You can also see everything there around. There are a lot of places the to be able to access the information but yeah those are the maybe the main ones I would recommend. >> Amazing. Well, thanks for joining us on beyond the yield. It was a pleasure having you and uh week ahead.

>> Yeah, you too.